MBB - Depth and Playing Time

[Cards]

Since there have been sooooo many comments regarding this issue (spread throughout numerous "threads"), I thought I'd open the floor here for any further discussion.

[RollPride15]

While playing time should obviously be a flexible, game-to-game thing, here's how I would like to see conference minutes play out, on average. Current mpg in parentheses:

Andre: 10 (4)
JWF: 8 (4)
Desure: 15 (13)
Malik: 16 (20)
Rokas: 28 (25)
Koon/Juan'ya/Ameen/Brian: About 31 apiece. That all adds up to 201 minutes, so it's damn close to what minutes guys reasonably could see. Not a massive change, but I'd just like to see us actually give time to guys beyond our starters+Malik. Andre is clearly never going to be the guy in the post, but he can be a refreshing change of pace that gives us some aggression on interior defense. I love Rokas, but he averages a block every 25 minutes. Andre averages a block just about every 9 minutes. That's a massive defensive swing in the paint, and he's worth having out there against certain lineups. ***Small sample size warning incoming*** JWF scores at a similar rate to Bernardi in terms of points per minute. Obviously he is a work in progress but I think giving him 8-10 minutes a game wouldn't hurt. Buie provides a definitive spark every time he's out there, I think we all love what we see in him, and 15 minutes a game is good in-conference time to develop.

What frustrates me is that if Joe doesn't use his limited depth this year, what's he going to do next year? We'll have a deeper, albeit less experienced team. If Joe can't find minutes for our 7-9 guys this year then it's difficult to see us convincing recruits to come and sit at the end of our bench for the years to come. Most other teams play down to their 9th or 10th guy fairly consistently. We play our 8th guy exclusively in garbage time. I just don't get it.

[Flying Dutchmen]

Interesting info you've uncovered FD. 243rd nationally.....WOW. Well at least we know that JAM style is not specific to HU. Unfortunately, IMO,that not such a good thing. I like what JAM had done, his recruiting, and the whole ball of wax......this fact you uncovered is probably what I would consider to be the first real knock against my opinion of his coaching style.

I lied, it was 256th, I was trying to recall the number off the top of my head before.

Yeah, I agree, it's strange just because we play such an uptempo offense, the assumption is we would get a lot of players involved. I don't mind having only nine scholarship players, but we need them all to play.

[daHUPride]

While playing time should obviously be a flexible, game-to-game thing, here's how I would like to see conference minutes play out, on average. Current mpg in parentheses:

Andre: 10 (4)
JWF: 8 (4)
Desure: 15 (13)
Malik: 16 (20)
Rokas: 28 (25)
Koon/Juan'ya/Ameen/Brian: About 31 apiece. That all adds up to 201 minutes, so it's damn close to what minutes guys reasonably could see. Not a massive change, but I'd just like to see us actually give time to guys beyond our starters+Malik. Andre is clearly never going to be the guy in the post, but he can be a refreshing change of pace that gives us some aggression on interior defense. I love Rokas, but he averages a block every 25 minutes. Andre averages a block just about every 9 minutes. That's a massive defensive swing in the paint, and he's worth having out there against certain lineups. ***Small sample size warning incoming*** JWF scores at a similar rate to Bernardi in terms of points per minute. Obviously he is a work in progress but I think giving him 8-10 minutes a game wouldn't hurt. Buie provides a definitive spark every time he's out there, I think we all love what we see in him, and 15 minutes a game is good in-conference time to develop.

What frustrates me is that if Joe doesn't use his limited depth this year, what's he going to do next year? We'll have a deeper, albeit less experienced team. If Joe can't find minutes for our 7-9 guys this year then it's difficult to see us convincing recruits to come and sit at the end of our bench for the years to come. Most other teams play down to their 9th or 10th guy fairly consistently. We play our 8th guy exclusively in garbage time. I just don't get it.

I always liked teams that came in with a defined 2nd unit - with a contra style of play then the so-called 1st unit.
For example every half for 3-4-5 minutes you run out a 2nd unit of Walker/Nicols/JFW/Buie and then one that is hottest or least fouls of green or Tanksley - and that 2nd unit presses, plays aggressives D and on every O set sprints up the court.
It will give the 1st unit a breather (needed) and a chance to see the game as a group.
Tough to do with 9 players - but I personally like the theory.

[stuball888]

VCU with their press and havoc style of play would wear down the opposition. When you have depth you can do that. With the plethora of guards we have had over the years I cannot for the life of me understand why we have not tried that.

[daHUPride]

VCU with their press and havoc style of play would wear down the opposition. When you have depth you can do that. With the plethora of guards we have had over the years I cannot for the life of me understand why we have not tried that.

Me neither, Stu.

[pridehoops2015]

I'm ok with the minutes. Andre and jwf haven't proven to our staff obviously that they deserve more. And I'm all in on this year. Not worried about next year yet.

[Polito]

Def all in on this year, and that to me is exactly why you DO extend minutes to the bench - and I don't agree, there is a very definitive case for AW to get more PT for the plain and simple fact that he is the ONLY true defensive presence in the post - and in his limited time, he has been just that - he completely alters the lane - NO ONE else on this team does that right now - it is extremely valuable - and that also allows you to keep fresher legs under Rokas - it is win-win to get the guy 8-10 min a game

and while JWF is young, he has super scoring ability and has only been able to flash it briefly - I bet his scoring per time is right up there with the starters - just have a feeling that he doesn't miss a whole lot - if he had just a couple more minutes he'd show it even more - I'm admittedly very high on the young man, I think he can, and will, score in buckets when the time comes - all for the right timing with him, it's more a matter of the need to give guys a breather and also to develop him over time

the bottom line is you need depth, and the only way to get it during a season is to PLAY the guys and coach them up through it.

[EvanJ]

and while JWF is young, he has super scoring ability and has only been able to flash it briefly - I bet his scoring per time is right up there with the starters - just have a feeling that he doesn't miss a whole lot - if he had just a couple more minutes he'd show it even more - I'm admittedly very high on the young man, I think he can, and will, score in buckets when the time comes - all for the right timing with him, it's more a matter of the need to give guys a breather and also to develop him over time

Points per 40 minutes:

Tanksley: Exactly 20
Green: 19.26
Wright-Foreman: 16.67 (exactly 16 2/3)
Bernardi: 16.39
Gustys: 16.30
Team: 16.11
Koon: 13.92
Nichols: 11.87
Buie: 10.42
Walker: 8.21

So you're right about Wright-Foreman.

[Polito]

Exactly. Thanks Evan.

And I knew I was right #humblebrag like I said, ain't my first rodeo. And I have a lot of interest in recruiting, so that helps!

Know what I'd love to see? In ANY game where HU can go small with a 4 guard lineup: Green/Buie, Tanksley, Bernardi, JWF, and Rokas with Koon coming off the bench instead of starting - I'd be willing to bet HU averages 5+ more pts per game when they do that from JWF's impact. I'm curious to the rebounding impact as well, because at first glance it looks like a lose, but JWF is crazy athletic so who knows... would be interesting to see. Can't imagine his D being so much worse...maybe that's a wash...?

Now that's a tiny lineup that can only be used in specific situations, but I'd LOVE to see it when possible, just to satisfy my curiosity! Cuz if I'm right, a 5+ swing with another experienced guy off the bench instead of starting could win this team some more games, maybe even the ones that matter most.

At the very least, JWF needs a couple of more minutes and the freedom to ball. If you can't tell, I am VERY excited to see him and DB let it rip next year with EP.

[Flying Dutchmen]

I think the Drexel game is the time to unleash JWF.

Drexel is an awful offensive team, lets give Buie 20 mins, JWF 15 mins to see what they can do on the court together, they have both shown ability to get to the hoop, and also hit the three pointer, they both have the potential to be dynamic offensive players. When Buie is on the court, we're a better team. I can't guarantee that it's not just a result of the circumstances of the game, Buie hasn't played too many high pressure minutes, but we seem to extend the lead, or perhaps more importantly, not lose the lead, when he's on the court.

Also, Koon hasn't been shooting the ball particularly well, and Tanksley's tweaked his neck and has missed some practice, would it really kill the staff to give the bench some more minutes on Thursday, as we prepare for maybe the most important three game stretch (JMU, @NE, W&M) of the season?

If Drexel decides to ramp up the defensive pressure on Bernardi to try to take him out of the game like Charleston, Elon in the 2nd half, let's make the personnel switch to throw them off guard. Drexel is one of the most foul prone teams in the country, let's get JWF attacking the hoop, get to the FT line. Drexel may be the one team that has less depth than us, we need to use that to our advantage.

[Cards]

I have to agree with you FD. I like your reasoning.

[Wags]

I'm ok with the minutes. Andre and jwf haven't proven to our staff obviously that they deserve more. And I'm all in on this year. Not worried about next year yet.

Based on what we've seen to this point, there's some validity to the argument made by many here who want to see more depth and more playing time for some of the reserves.

But you can't just throw out blanket numbers and say, "This guy should always get X minutes, and that guy should get Y minutes" every night.

Every game is different. parts of games are different. Matchups are different. Sometimes you have to go smaller or bigger depending on who you're playing and whether you want to match up to them or force them to match up to you. Some guys pick up early fouls you don't expect and you have to scrap some of the game plan that you had going on. Other guys have a hotter or colder hand or more or less trouble defending on certain nights and even within different stretches of the same games, so then you have to adjust that way as well.

I'm as much in favor of increasing depth as anyone. But it can't be forced. And as implied above, when you're the conference favorite THIS year, you worry about next year when it gets here, and focus on winning now.

And, very valid argument as well that it's going to be tough to win 3 in 3 days, but Carlos Rivera once played all 120 minutes in Richmond over three days without a single turnover, while running the point. I've said it before, but these guys are young and not that far removed from playing all day in AAU ball. Get your best team out there. If that happens to be a longer rotation, great. Depth is always good. But if that happens to be trying to win a regular season title and a tourney win in Baltimore with basically 6-7 guys most of the time, then that's great as well.

At 3-1, and tied for first place, with only one CAA game at home (where HU hasn't lost yet this year overall), I'll trust what the staff is doing for right now.... by the way, 4 of the next 5 and 5 of the next 7 are at home (by then, we'll be almost be two-thirds of the way -- 11 of the 18 games -- into the CAA slate; great time for HU to take advantage of that and stamp itself as the team to beat).

[Pride97]

A friend of mine, who is a Syracuse alum, sent me the following...

"The Orange's "bench" — which includes Dajuan Coleman instead of Tyler Lydon, since Lydon plays more minutes — accounts for only 16.0% of the total minutes Syracuse players have played. That's the lowest mark in college basketball — 351st out of 351 teams Division I teams — by a wide margin. Hofstra's bench accounts for 18.9% of that team's minutes, and the Pride rank 350th in that category."

He said that this is a common occurrence for Boeheim teams (I don't have the statistics to back this up). I agree with most that I would like to see more minutes for Buie, JWF and even Walker, but if this is true, I guess it can be a winning formula. These guys are young so maybe with the proper conditioning it is possible to sustain.

[Cards]

I can understand your position Wags. My concern is if we get hit with injury or the like. It could be devastating. And in general, I like to see some player development for the long term health of the program. And as a lower priority, I think it helps recruiting to know that as an incoming freshman you still may get some minutes.

[Wags]

I can understand your position Wags. My concern is if we get hit with injury or the like. It could be devastating. And in general, I like to see some player development for the long term health of the program. And as a lower priority, I think it helps recruiting to know that as an incoming freshman you still may get some minutes.

Both very sound points, and although that second one may be a lower priority to the program as a whole, it could be the top one to those incoming freshmen.

However, nothing sells a program like success. So if you sacrifice some of the depth and doling out more minutes to others in place of winning the CAA and playing in the NCAA Tourney with a shorter rotation, because (as with the last game) that shortened rotation is your best chance at winning, then that's what you have to do.

I think telling a recruit that Hofstra made the NCAA Tourney is still a bigger draw to land that recruit than telling a recruit that Hofstra missed the NCAA Tourney, but the recruit will get more minutes earlier in his career.

It's definitely a balance. And yes, preparation is ALWAYS better, so if you do have to call on a guy who's not in the regular rotation now, it of course would be better if he had more experience going into that situation.

But I just think that at 3-1, tied for first right now, you stick with what works. And then, if and when some regular rotation guys aren't getting it done or of any of them get hurt, you call upon others to come in and step up then. Even though nothing can replace actual game time, they're not coming in off the street in that case; they're still practicing with the team and know the systems (offensively and defensively) and should be able to step in, even with a lack of actual game time.

If you know you're going to likely finish in the bottom half of the league (as in more recent years with HU) and not get very far, and you're rebuilding, I think that's when you force the extra minutes to the more inexperienced guys, to allow for development and to see what you have. But when it's a year like this year, and you have a legit chance to win the league and the CAA tourney, I think you go the other route (at least for now... I may change my opinion on this depending on how things go over the next few weeks).

[Flying Dutchmen]

However, nothing sells a program like success. So if you sacrifice some of the depth and doling out more minutes to others in place of winning the CAA and playing in the NCAA Tourney with a shorter rotation, because (as with the last game) that shortened rotation is your best chance at winning, then that's what you have to do.

If that's how it plays out as the season progresses, that's not a problem at all. I'll probably be running on the court with the students in Baltimore(if any show up) if that's the case haha.

My concern is actually that we're not playing JWF, Walker, Buie enough, at the expense of the optimal performance of our team. We're far from a lockdown defensive team, so some of our personnel can be rotated out for a few minutes and it might actually help the team defense, as I've been frequently arguing in Buie's case.

Also with Bernardi and Koon, just rotate them out for a few minutes if they have a bad offensive/defensive matchup. Koon shouldn't be getting his pocket picked 4 times, and Bernardi can't be going 1-5, with really bad looks, like what happened in Charleston. Teams have been actively trying to take Bernardi out of the game, if we're having trouble breaking their defense, just bring in JWF for a few minutes, he brings a different skillset, and may get a better defensive matchup.

Overall, I'm nitpicking. I think the starting 5 has done a great job this year, I just think giving the freshmen some time takes pressure off the rest of the lineup, and they can be an energy infusion at points in the first half, and earlier in the second half, when our performance has lagged somewhat consistently all year.

[Wags]

However, nothing sells a program like success. So if you sacrifice some of the depth and doling out more minutes to others in place of winning the CAA and playing in the NCAA Tourney with a shorter rotation, because (as with the last game) that shortened rotation is your best chance at winning, then that's what you have to do.

If that's how it plays out as the season progresses, that's not a problem at all. I'll probably be running on the court with the students in Baltimore(if any show up) if that's the case haha.

My concern is actually that we're not playing JWF, Walker, Buie enough, at the expense of the optimal performance of our team. We're far from a lockdown defensive team, so some of our personnel can be rotated out for a few minutes and it might actually help the team defense, as I've been frequently arguing in Buie's case.

Also with Bernardi and Koon, just rotate them out for a few minutes if they have a bad offensive/defensive matchup. Koon shouldn't be getting his pocket picked 4 times, and Bernardi can't be going 1-5, with really bad looks, like what happened in Charleston. Teams have been actively trying to take Bernardi out of the game, if we're having trouble breaking their defense, just bring in JWF for a few minutes, he brings a different skillset, and may get a better defensive matchup.

Overall, I'm nitpicking. I think the starting 5 has done a great job this year, I just think giving the freshmen some time takes pressure off the rest of the lineup, and they can be an energy infusion at points in the first half, and earlier in the second half, when our performance has lagged somewhat consistently all year.

Trust me, I hear you. There have been times this season when I thought, "Why doesn't Coach play Walker here for a few minutes, JWF, Buie, or give more time at certain times to even someone who's IN the regular rotation, like Nichols?" And matchups can warrant changes, as you mentioned with Bernardi being taken out of his game in Charleston.

But I think as long as they are where they should be (you could argue that maybe they should be 4-0, but 3-1 is fine right now), I think they should stick with what is generally working. Now, lose to Drexel tomorrow because they're gassed or some of the regular rotation guys are underpeforming, and I think you have to look at the rotation and consider some changes against JMU. But win the next two, and finish the first third of the CAA schedule at 5-1, and I think you stick with more of the same until the results start to change over more than a game or two.

[Polito]

Valid points Wags that I think are true... to an extent.

I will again call attention to the difference between the regular season and the CAAT. I agree that when things are working and clicking, you go with it until a scenario proves the need to do otherwise. I also agree HU is in a pretty good spot right now all things considered - as you said, sure 4-0 would be better and something a lot of us wanted due to the talent and experience of this starting group, but 3-1 and being up top is where HU can be expected at this point

Where I disagree is in the idea that a short rotation provides the best chance to win - win what? A bunch of games with nothing noteworthy to show for it, like last year? Sure, no argument there. But to win the CAAT? With ZERO developed depth? I don't agree - and the history and stats of this conf in particular support that. I think it's silly trying to be that 1 in 20 yr team that defies the odds to do it when there ARE capable guys on the sidelines to work with

I also don't agree that players will just step right up no problem the minute they're needed just because they've been practicing - that would be a wonderful place, but it doesn't exist - players need REAL game time in order to be prepared to step in and produce when it counts. You really think it's smart to put yourself in the ridiculous position of having to use a completely inexperienced guy off the bench during game 3 of the CAAT to spell a starter with the game on the line? right, I didn't think so, me neither.

No, you don't just throw minutes around for the heck of it, I'm not saying guys should get time just because they're on the team, but you HAVE to get some key guys decent PT to prepare for ANY need down the home stretch and in the tourney - and ideally you've already started doing that by now - the meat of the conf schedule is not the time to be experimenting.

And I know guys like AW are not world beaters, and JWF is still young and growing, but for goodness sake they bring some value to the table, they can match up in some cases and provide a needed boost, there ARE uses and those uses IMO need more than the mouse minutes they are getting - and I am actually a big fan of having a steady starting 5 that you can depend on game in and out - I think JM and staff have done a great job there. But the depth thing I do not agree with how they've handled

Because on the positive side, I do believe VERY MUCH that in the event HU can somehow get to the NCAAT, these fellas can knock off some bigs - not about depth there, it's about lightening in a bottle, and more than any other year I think HU can catch it with this starting group

I actually am a big fan of having a steady starting 5 that you can depend on game in and out - I think JM and staff have done a great job there. But the depth thing I do not and will not agree with their handling of.

[Wags]

No, you don't just throw minutes around for the heck of it, I'm not saying guys should get time just because they're on the team, but you HAVE to get some key guys decent PT to prepare for ANY need down the home stretch and in the tourney - and ideally you've already started doing that by now - the meat of the conf schedule is not the time to be experimenting.

I do agree with this though. Makes perfect sense on the surface. However, consider...

Delaware in Baltimore two years ago:

- Beat HU, 87-76... starters' minutes: 38 (with 4 PF), 38, 37, 35, 24 (with 4 PF)... bench minutes: 11, 10 and 7... 85 of the 87 pts from the starters.
- Beat NU, 87-74... starters' minutes: 38, 38, 37 (4 PF), 36, 16 (5 PF)... bench minutes: 18, 6, 5, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1... 80 of the 87 pts from the starters.
- Beat W&M, 75-74... starters' minutes: 40, 40, 40, 34, 34... bench minutes: 6, 4, 2... ALL 75 pts from the starters with 3 starters playing the entire game.
- Sure, scoring isn't everything, by any stretch... but, 240 of 249 pts (96.4%) from the Delaware starters, and it's not like they were scoring in the 50s or 60s (83 ppg in the CAAT).

Northeastern in Baltimore last year:

- Albeit to a lesser degree than Delaware, also relied heavily on its starters and not much else outside of 1-2 key bench guys.
- By the time the Huskies got to the title game, the 3rd game in 3 days, pretty much relied on 6-7 guys (starters: 40, 38, 38, 34 & 25... bench: 16, 8, 5).

Would you prefer a deep team with 8, 9, 10 guys all contributing, and everyone fresh all the time? Of course you would. But if you're not built that way, forcing it because "it absolutely can't be done in Baltimore with a short rotation" goes against the history we've seen in Baltimore since the tourney moved from Richmond two years ago.