MBB - Depth and Playing Time

[Wags]

More numbers on the depth topic in regards to this game.

Hofstra gets the win despite...

Bench scoring: Hofstra 5, Northeastern 34

[daHUPride]

All of the talk all season long about playing time and guys being too gassed at the ends of games because of a lack of depth.

And then, with the bench playing all of 16 min (Nichols 9, Buie 7), they gut out a 96-92 win on the floor of the defending CAA champions in triple overtime, with these minutes being logged: Green 55, Koon 53, Gustys 52, Bernardi 50, Tanskley 49.

So what's the narrative now?

The narrative now is that the CAA, and every team involved in the conference, is crazy and unpredictable, and there's no explanation for anything that happens.

Except that I've been saying all season long not to get so hung up on depth and playing time. It's more important to be executing, even if that's mostly from just the starters in a very short rotation.

By the way, if you believe in plus/minus numbers, the two bench guys, in their limited minutes, were both minus tonight. Each of the five starters, playing 49-55 minutes, were each plus.

I respectfully disagree -
I can't argue about the success we have had and a quality win like we had last night; I can't be more proud of the b*lls these 5 play with almost every game - but MAYBE with a breather here or there we don't go into OT - maybe Koon has a little bit more in the tank and hits a FT and we don't go into 3OT's, maybe a fresh Buie/Nicols is a little quicker to a loose ball then someone that logged 55 grueling minutes
the fatigue and our ability to come back from OT's will be evident Saturday v WM - and someone said push the game back to Monday (God knows we could use the rest)
I am resigned to these facts - that AW and JFW and never going to get minutes; MN and DB will get some minutes but only when there is a problem with the starters; JAM rotation and allocation of minutes isn't going to change
Again I can't argue with our record; I can't say say those 5 aren't the most deserving of the bulk of minutes; and we will never know if we'd be better or worse with a more balanced use of our bench - but it is my personal belief that there are many benefits of utilizing the bench and long term the team would be better off with AW, JFW, MN and DB getting more playing time.
All that being said - it isn't going to change - coach is the coach I am a fan; I trust he knows more then me - and I stand behind this team - last time from me that the bench needs more PT and starters could use a bit of a breather here and there.

[RollPride15]

I think the narrative concern is not so much that the team can win one game...It's that 3 games in 3 days is going to be a tall task. I hope I am proven wrong about the bench depth. I certainly trust our starting 5 to give it all they have. We will see if they can win three tough games in March.

[HUSID80]

The bottom line is that our bench is just NOT VERY GOOD...there is a HUGE drop-off when ANY of these kids come in...even Buie...he makes some good players...the dish to Rokus but also threw the ball away several times...For Joe it's a matter of trust and he doesn't trust those guys...YET

[Wags]

The bottom line is that our bench is just NOT VERY GOOD...there is a HUGE drop-off when ANY of these kids come in...even Buie...he makes some good players...the dish to Rokus but also threw the ball away several times...For Joe it's a matter of trust and he doesn't trust those guys...YET

That's EXACTLY it.

It's not like Joe doesn't want to play them or doesn't like them, etc. He likes all of his players. But he has to stick with the ones who can get it done. Which is what happened last night.

If he listened to this board, he'd have forced extra minutes for the bench and lost a big game instead of pushing the starters to win a big game, even through 3 OTs, following an OT game against JMU.

[Wags]

I respectfully disagree -
I can't argue about the success we have had and a quality win like we had last night; I can't be more proud of the b*lls these 5 play with almost every game - but MAYBE with a breather here or there we don't go into OT - maybe Koon has a little bit more in the tank and hits a FT and we don't go into 3OT's, maybe a fresh Buie/Nicols is a little quicker to a loose ball then someone that logged 55 grueling minutes
the fatigue and our ability to come back from OT's will be evident Saturday v WM - and someone said push the game back to Monday (God knows we could use the rest)
I am resigned to these facts - that AW and JFW and never going to get minutes; MN and DB will get some minutes but only when there is a problem with the starters; JAM rotation and allocation of minutes isn't going to change
Again I can't argue with our record; I can't say say those 5 aren't the most deserving of the bulk of minutes; and we will never know if we'd be better or worse with a more balanced use of our bench - but it is my personal belief that there are many benefits of utilizing the bench and long term the team would be better off with AW, JFW, MN and DB getting more playing time.
All that being said - it isn't going to change - coach is the coach I am a fan; I trust he knows more then me - and I stand behind this team - last time from me that the bench needs more PT and starters could use a bit of a breather here and there.

It's always good when you can give a breather to your starters provided you don't lose much while they're out. I don't think Hofstra has that luxury right now, and I think some here are overrating the quality of Hofstra's bench.

Koon missing the late FT in regulation because he was tired? Not buying that at ALL when I saw him score Hofstra's first 11 points of the first overtime. And if that's the case, Bernardi had no problem at all hitting clutch FTs in OT to help seal the win.

You can say they might win the game in regulation if they gave the starters more rest. But my guess is more that they lose the game in regulation if the starters didn't play the minutes they did.

I don't really get what some people are watching here. The reaction from some about the issues of depth and playing time is as if the Hofstra starters gave it all they could for 40 minutes and ran out of gas as Northeastern pulled away for a win in OT. When in reality, it couldn't have been more to the contrary. The starters played all but 16 minutes of a 3OT game. on the heels of an OT loss, and actually stepped it up MORE the longer the game went after regulation, to gut out a tough win in OT. That doesn't tell me they could have used rest. It tells me its a good thing Joe stuck with them so they could win.

[Cards]

In my opinion, the mistake in not giving more PT to the bench guys was made during the OCC games. The three younger guys could have had more PT (which obviously would have been good for their development) and maybe the trust level that JAM has in these guys would now be higher. We'll never know now how that would have turned out.

In the end, the 5 starters played their tails off last night... a true max effort from each of them.

Its clear to me that the rest of the season will be the Green and Gustys show!

[Wags]

In my opinion, the mistake in not giving more PT to the bench guys was made during the OCC games. The three younger guys could have had more PT (which obviously would have been good for their development) and maybe the trust level that JAM has in these guys would now be higher. We'll never know now how that would have turned out.

This was always Polito's point, and I think it's a very valid one.

It would be real nice to have a deeper, more inclusive team. Even Joe and his staff believe that, I think.

But there must have been things they saw in practice that prevented them from doing that in the OOC schedule, especially after they lost enough key OOC games to lose any realistic shot at an at-large bid. As you said, that was the time to develop them. At this point, CAA games (especially ones like last night) are too valuable to risk experimenting with to see what you have on your bench.

But you can also look at it this way, and I sense this is how Joe and his staff have seen it -- even if you developed the bench during the OOC schedule, but then didn't want to risk them during CAA play, they would then get so stale by March, it wouldn't matter anyway. That, and that the staff probably knew very early on what it had and what it would need to ride through CAA play and in Baltimore. So then, analogous to developing the bench, the staff probably figured the investment in further developing the real core, with the short 6-7 man rotation that would ultimately have to be relied upon in Baltimore anyway, would be more worthwhile to invest in from the beginning, through OOC play, through the whole season.

Case in point, look at Gustys' development this year through OOC play and over the first 7 CAA games. Maybe that doesn't happen if he's sacrificing extra minutes that are forced upon Walker. And now because of that, you have, like you said, the possibility of the Green & Gustys show the rest of the way, with Tanskley, Koon, Bernardi and Nichols (and occasionally Buie sprinkled in) providing support.

[Cards]

All good points Wags. If that is truly how Joe and staff saw things, I think the only change I would have made is to keep Jamal Robinson on the floor this year. Certainly there is not "trust" issue with his game, and it would be a hedge against an injury or unforeseen circumstance (like a Djambo fiasco).

[daHUPride]

Agree or disagree, I guess the good news boys - is that we are winning and we all have a passion for this team and see the potential of this having a chance to be a special year for a talented team - for the players I hope they can stay healthy and strong because these players, collectively, haven't come around here very often, at least not recently.

I enjoy reading all of this - and enjoy reading the opinions and thoughts about this team.'

'Go Pride!!! Beat W&M!!!

[Wags]

All good points Wags. If that is truly how Joe and staff saw things, I think the only change I would have made is to keep Jamal Robinson on the floor this year. Certainly there is not "trust" issue with his game, and it would be a hedge against an injury or unforeseen circumstance (like a Djambo fiasco).

Yeah, I don't know what happened there. He just suddenly got lost and became and afterthought. Kind of strange. He seemed to be coming along last year, even if slowly. I expected him to take more of a move forward this year, but I guess the staff didn't see it in him either.

[Wags]

Agree or disagree, I guess the good news boys - is that we are winning and we all have a passion for this team and see the potential of this having a chance to be a special year for a talented team - for the players I hope they can stay healthy and strong because these players, collectively, haven't come around here very often, at least not recently.

I enjoy reading all of this - and enjoy reading the opinions and thoughts about this team.'

'Go Pride!!! Beat W&M!!!

Even though we may not always agree (nor should we, since that's part of the fun in discussing it), at least there IS something to discuss. At least we're now having conversations about what the best path might be to a possible and very realistic shot at CAA regular season and tourney titles, instead of discussing how there are as many player arrests as D-1 wins one year, or if the team can win more than 10 games the next. The program has certainly turned around a lot in a relatively short amount of time. And the discussion among the fans on this board make the season twice the fun!

[Flying Dutchmen]

Last night for example, Bernardi was killing us until the final OT. I love the resolve Bernardi has to just keep going, but he could have cost us that game, it was one of his worst games in uniform until 3OT. Bernardi had a tough day on both sides of the ball, which really is not a big deal if you just have a bench guy come in and split some minutes with him.

Why the hell wouldn't Joe just put in Buie or Nichols for a few minutes at the end of regulation? If Bernardi, Koon, etc. were defensive stoppers, I would be in favor of the bench situation we have now, but frankly, most of the starting five are defensive liabilities on any given night.

Hey we got the job done, and I think that's a big deal. But even in this epic win, I think we left something out there with our bench utilization, and the story-line could have been we held off a big 2nd half rally from Northeastern for 10 point victory.

[Wags]

Last night for example, Bernardi was killing us until the final OT. I love the resolve Bernardi has to just keep going, but he could have cost us that game, it was one of his worst games in uniform until 3OT. Bernardi had a tough day on both sides of the ball, which really is not a big deal if you just have a bench guy come in and split some minutes with him.

Why the hell wouldn't Joe just put in Buie or Nichols for a few minutes at the end of regulation? If Bernardi, Koon, etc. were defensive stoppers, I would be in favor of the bench situation we have now, but frankly, most of the starting five are defensive liabilities on any given night.

Hey we got the job done, and I think that's a big deal. But even in this epic win, I think we left something out there with our bench utilization, and the story-line could have been we held off a big 2nd half rally from Northeastern for 10 point victory.

True, but what we've seen from the bench hasn't been so spectacular that they have earned more minutes either. So the story line Joe was trying to avoid was Northeastern taking advantage of HU's bench and rallying for a win.

He got Bernardi and Tanksley a short rest over the media time out, toward the end of the 14-2 run that got NU back in the game. He took them out at for Nichols and Buie, up 49-45, at 13:04.
He then put Tanskley right back in for Nichols at 12:36, and Bernardi back in for Buie at 11:42, up 49-47.
NU immediately tied at 49-49, but it was right after that, with Bernardi in there, when HU went on the 8-0 run that I thought really stabilized and saved the game for HU, to put them up, 57-49, with 7:55 left.

Now, Bernardi was also in there as NU rallied from that to force OT. So it's tricky. Ultimately, Bernardi and all of the other starters who were supposed to have been to tired to finish, went above and beyond, not only with extra minutes, but making huge plays in those extra minutes. So the only conclusion is (for now, at least), Joe knew what he was doing.

p.s., RE: Bernardi and the "lights out" shooter some here have called him, when I've been saying the reality is that he's very streaky, and you never know which one you're going to get. Here are his numbers in Dec and Jan. All over the place, and the past two games have been really bad -- 6-29 overall, 3-18 from 3):

[Polito]

Will keep this thread alive in regards to MN injury and depth


Injuries like Nichols are EXACTLY why depth and bench player development is vital. DB and JWF cannot fill his role (defensive spark) yet, and should not be relied upon to do so. And you guys know how highly I think of them both - they may handle it well, I just don't think HU should be in that position. The only other big/forward available is none other than AW. He will likely be needed. And I for one would've liked to have had him in a better place than he currently is.

To address dutchiedoright, AW is absolutely a player known for defense - that's about the only thing right now lol - if you followed his recruitment or have any understanding of player evaluation, that should be clear. He is a shot altering and blocking guy. He is a defensive presence in the post. That is what he brings to the table.

He has very little offensive prowess and is lost on that end currently, that is also clear. BUT his defensive ability and presence down low cannot be discounted. And I don't care who you are, you don't replace a 6'9 bruiser with a 6' frosh, unless he's the 2nd coming of Jordan. In that scenario is to you use your 6'10 backup who is KNOWN and PROVEN to alter/block shots to eat up the post and alter the opponents game plan. Doesn't mean JMU wouldn't have won, but it wouldn't have been from an easy score in the post.

IMO it was a mistake. And it's ok, I'm not losing sleep over it, I just found it very frustrating because I thought it was a foolish one. I think we need to lose some of the sensitivity around asking questions of coaches - these are PAID professionals, not students - they carry very different expectations, and it's ok to ask some questions - we're not idiots (for the most part lol), they are not perfect, and they are not above it.

I happen to love this staff, and I think they deserve support and of course a certain level of trust - I'm no coach or guru, I don't know more than JM - but it's year 3, they've not yet won anything of significance (by their own admission), they are still proving themselves - I think he's a very good coach, the staff is great, and I'm loving the program and athletes they're developing - but it doesn't mean the guy doesn't make a mistake

I don't agree with the lack of bench development - he's stubborn with it, that's just my personal opinion. I think it's needed in this conf based on history. And now with Nichols injury I think it's clear why quality serviceable backup play is so important.

I love that JM noted they have a plan when it comes to PT and starters and maintaining high energy play - and they very well may navigate this loss perfectly fine - I'm just admittedly focused on what matters most, winning 3 tough ones in 3 straight days - they haven't done it yet - and I think with such little development on the bench, it makes it that much harder.

I will gladly accept them proving that concern was unnecessary, trust me!

[Cards]

So lets be positive and look at the glass as being half full. Lets say MN misses a couple of weeks and comes back at full strength later in the season. AW gets minutes over the next couple of weeks and get some self confidence in his game. He establishes (or maintains, depending on your opinion of him) that he is a defensive "plus" on the court rather than an overall liability. JM sees AW improvement so that even when MN gets back, AW continues to get a few minutes a game. We get into the CAAT with JM not afraid to use AW a few minutes a game to spell RG or use when RG gets into foul trouble.

So, without knowing anything about MN injury, if he misses 4-6 games and we can hold our position in the standings using AW, it should be an overall plus for tournament play. We can hope.

Now if AW gets minimal minutes during a MN absence, and is relegated to the pine assuming MN comes back, I think its likely that AW will be transferring.

[daHUPride]

Will keep this thread alive in regards to MN injury and depth


Injuries like Nichols are EXACTLY why depth and bench player development is vital. DB and JWF cannot fill his role (defensive spark) yet, and should not be relied upon to do so. And you guys know how highly I think of them both - they may handle it well, I just don't think HU should be in that position. The only other big/forward available is none other than AW. He will likely be needed. And I for one would've liked to have had him in a better place than he currently is.

To address dutchiedoright, AW is absolutely a player known for defense - that's about the only thing right now lol - if you followed his recruitment or have any understanding of player evaluation, that should be clear. He is a shot altering and blocking guy. He is a defensive presence in the post. That is what he brings to the table.

He has very little offensive prowess and is lost on that end currently, that is also clear. BUT his defensive ability and presence down low cannot be discounted. And I don't care who you are, you don't replace a 6'9 bruiser with a 6' frosh, unless he's the 2nd coming of Jordan. In that scenario is to you use your 6'10 backup who is KNOWN and PROVEN to alter/block shots to eat up the post and alter the opponents game plan. Doesn't mean JMU wouldn't have won, but it wouldn't have been from an easy score in the post.

IMO it was a mistake. And it's ok, I'm not losing sleep over it, I just found it very frustrating because I thought it was a foolish one. I think we need to lose some of the sensitivity around asking questions of coaches - these are PAID professionals, not students - they carry very different expectations, and it's ok to ask some questions - we're not idiots (for the most part lol), they are not perfect, and they are not above it.

I happen to love this staff, and I think they deserve support and of course a certain level of trust - I'm no coach or guru, I don't know more than JM - but it's year 3, they've not yet won anything of significance (by their own admission), they are still proving themselves - I think he's a very good coach, the staff is great, and I'm loving the program and athletes they're developing - but it doesn't mean the guy doesn't make a mistake

I don't agree with the lack of bench development - he's stubborn with it, that's just my personal opinion. I think it's needed in this conf based on history. And now with Nichols injury I think it's clear why quality serviceable backup play is so important.

I love that JM noted they have a plan when it comes to PT and starters and maintaining high energy play - and they very well may navigate this loss perfectly fine - I'm just admittedly focused on what matters most, winning 3 tough ones in 3 straight days - they haven't done it yet - and I think with such little development on the bench, it makes it that much harder.

I will gladly accept them proving that concern was unnecessary, trust me!

I said it last week - it is what it is - JAM is doing it his way. But to use his quote in Newsday - after yesterdays game "“We have a plan. We can’t tell you what it is. It’s a secret,’’ he said. “We have a plan for getting these guys on the floor, keeping them on the floor.’’

But I, like Polito, strongly believe that developing a bench is vital. Love coach/staff, but they are rolling a lot of dice - cant argue with the success this year - but would feel more comfortable with these guys - DB, JFW, AW - being used more - plus I think they deserve from the play I have seen of them.

[ProudofPride]

He said the same thing about having a "secret plan" in the W&M post-game presser. He also said that Northeastern was tired, and not us.

[HUSID80]

If Malik is seriously hurt maybe it's time for Jamall Robinson to burn his redshirt. This is becoming a special team and it could be the chance of a lifetime. Never understood why he was redshirted in the first place with our lack of depth.

I would rather play on an NCAA team for a half year than play a full year on an also ran team.

[joeg1]

I'd burn the redshirt. The team is bigger than the individual. And this is JR'S 3rd year at Hofstra, so by all accounts, he should graduate next year. Therefore, he can play his Sr year next year at Hofstra and transfer as a grad student the yr after that if he wants to play on.

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