The Social Issue Thread

[Polito]

Yeehaw!!!! Let's do this!! LOL

I'm obviously really hoping we can actually do this civilly and have some great dialogue back and forth, but who knows, this thread may get blown up before it even really gets going!

Wags, appreciate your perspectives, although I don't agree on all points. Which is totally fine.

50's pride, I know your last post took a few things from my post(s), but they were cherry picked a bit my friend to be fair, I would encourage you to ask about meaning rather than presuming. Remember, text can make accurate interpretation a challenge.

What I was largely doing originally was simply showing some love to Cards, one of our OWN, who to my knowledge is a VETERAN that carries the badge of honor for being someone who actually defended the rights we are referencing. Even for people who stand for the opposite of his views, and have little idea what honor truly means. I'm sure you and Wags and others will even disagree with that, and that's ok, I'm good with differing views. That's just mine.

I didn't serve, but have many family members who did, as perhaps you do as well, and so my definition of things like respect is likely a bit different than some others today. I don't view symbols and actions as arbitrary and meaningless. They absolutely carry meaning. If not, well then I guess kneeling is meaningless too right, and therefore all of this is just nonsense serving no purpose? But I bet you don't believe that. It just seems that one side is being deemed meaningless because it doesn't fit the desired narrative (standing), while the similar element on the other side (kneeling) is somehow deemed carrying some great purpose. Nah, can't have it both ways. Symbols and actions either mean something or they don't. And anyone with the power of thought knows they do.

That said, I want to be clear I'm not going too crazy about the kneeling. No, I don't agree with it, but I will gladly take that form of awareness / protest over violence and destruction claiming to be in the name of something great (hint: it isn't, it's domestic terrorism by extremists on both sides who are using unsuspecting groups who are trying to do something positive and hijacking it for evil). At least this method is peaceful, and for that I am thankful.

Anyhoo, here's my biggest issue with today: this isn't about clamoring for awareness anymore. We HAVE awareness. I doubt there is a single person in this country that is not aware of the issues going on. It's been forced down everyones throats incessantly and completely bastardized and misconstrued by the extreme media, on ALL sides.

-->> The problem is we aren't just demanding awareness anymore, the demand has become AGREEMENT. We now ALL have to agree to the views in power or be lambasted, shamed, and hated on for daring to have a different thought. And it's the same on both sides. It is absolutely ridiculous, and that I cannot stand for. Because THAT is constitutionally, morally, and ethically wrong. That's literally trying to control people, to demand that everyone be the same, and that is what is happening in this country right now. It's wrong, left or right, or anywhere in between.

NO ONE gets the right to force people to agree with them and to have the same exact opinion they do because that's what THEY deem is right. The hypocrisy I see in this country today has reached epic proportions. The left side is running around demanding their voices be heard, which they absolutely are loud and clear, while simultaneously demanding any opposing view from the right is fully silenced. And even worse, it's being promoted and encouraged in the name of social justice. And people are believing it. That right there should scare everyone, on all sides, and that's what I mean when I say the true original intent of things today has become totally lost and distorted by extremists. Any opposing view today, any at all, is being labeled evil, publicly shamed, etc, it's insane. People are being FIRED and having their careers and lives ruined because they don't agree with someone. Folks, this is utter idiocy.

And let me clarify, I am neither Dem nor Rep, because they're all full of manure . I stand on my values, which for me personally are founded on my faith (and also kindergarten as I referenced before lol!), and I fortunately have the intelligence and emotional stability to understand the good and bad from both sides, and form my views and positions according to my principles, not a 'party'.

I have voted both sides over the many years, depending on where I see the best chance for positive impact and value on key issues to me. Some things I lean left, some things right. So I'm not promoting one over the other here. But what I can't stand for is someone repeatedly telling me how awful of a person I am because our views differ. That's completely irrational, and I fully reject that thinking and treatment.

Here's what I think: We all need to be more tolerant. ALL of us. Seek first to understand, then to be understood. A lot can change from that simple approach. I'm praying for it, for us, a lot, but I'm also not holding my breath. Just standing for what I believe is right to the best of my ability, in my way, by living my life the way I think I am called to, with love, care, and respect for others. By example. And then hoping others do the same, in their way, because I know my way isn't the only one. BUT love, care, and respect are the key operatives here. When those things guide us, we are all better off, no matter the method.

[Wags]

What I was largely doing originally was simply showing some love to Cards, one of our OWN, who to my knowledge is a VETERAN that carries the badge of honor for being someone who actually defended the rights we are referencing. Even for people who stand for the opposite of his views, and have little idea what honor truly means. I'm sure you and Wags and others will even disagree with that, and that's ok, I'm good with differing views. That's just mine.

I don't think you understood at all what I was saying on this specific point earlier. So, I'll say again, Cards has his view and that's fine, but there are many other veterans who earned the same badge of honor and perhaps even greater honors who will be the first to say that they served specifically so that any American can have the right to do something like peacefully protest the wrongs in our country, especially an action like kneeling -- recognizing that the kneeling isn't meant to be disrespectful to what the flag stands for, but rather, an effective means of garnering attention to give a push toward correcting our nation's social ills and creating a more perfect union. And they'll say they served because many other countries don't have such rights or freedoms to take an action like kneeling in order to further social change.

Anyhoo, here's my biggest issue with today: this isn't about clamoring for awareness anymore. We HAVE awareness. I doubt there is a single person in this country that is not aware of the issues going on. It's been forced down everyones throats incessantly and completely bastardized and misconstrued by the extreme media, on ALL sides.

-->> The problem is we aren't just demanding awareness anymore, the demand has become AGREEMENT. We now ALL have to agree to the views in power or be lambasted, shamed, and hated on for daring to have a different thought. And it's the same on both sides.

These type of statements apply when we're debating policy questions, questions like whether to raise taxes (for what and on whom), on energy, foreign policy, the econony, education, etc., etc. But we can't even get to that because one party -- only ONE (or at least a substantial part of one party) -- has been radicalized and believes in insane conspiracy theories like QAnon; makes wearing masks during a widespread, deadly pandemic a political issue; swears fealty to one person in a cultlike manner; won't accept the results of a free and fair election or our longtime tradition of the peaceful transfer of power; attracts neo-Nazis to its party on a widespread basis; and has the leader of its party basically echo the other party's argument for an impeachment conviction yet votes against his own words and votes for acquittal for no more than political reasons rather than standing by his own words and doing what he knows is right. On that last one, we absolutely cannot have unity in this country until we have accountability. But that's pretty tough to have when certain senators from one party say one thing that agrees with the other party, but then vote against those beliefs and against accountability.

So that's where the "both sides" things right now is frankly bullshit and simplifies what's going on in this country right now way too much.

I'll disagree - we DON'T have awareness, not nearly as much as we should. Not like you think. Not when so many people are radicalized. It all depends on where you get your information from. If you're going down the QAnon rabbit hole every day and you don't listen to much else, you don't have awareness at all. And there are a LOT of people like that in our country right now. That stuff is sadly and unfortunately far more than a mere fringe (there are two QAnon congresspeople who were elected, one of which you know - MTG) and they have a large hold on the more reasonable members of the party, which is a huge problem for everyone, regardless of party affiliation.

Those things go so far beyond policy debates that it's absolutely not the "same on both sides." No party is ever perfect, but right now, too much of one side is doing the above because that side no longer adheres to basic truths and facts about anything anymore, and the rest of the party doesn't disavow it. So then, many people on one side are allowed to have their "alternative facts" which are really just the spreading of lies and misinformation while those who know better in one party take advantage of that to try to stay in power. That's why like I said in the other thread, before anything, regardless of parties and perspectives, we need to first get back to the same baseline for all of facts and truth instead of making facts and truth whatever some people want it to be, based on wild, unfounded conspiracy theories.

[triplec2195]

I'll preface what I have to say here quickly but don't believe this has a place here it's already taking on political one- sidedness. It should be socioeconomic but POLITICS rears its ugly head. All people are different and think differently and of course come to their own conclusions surprise surprise so not to be able to consider some middle ground here is faulty in its own merits. Nothing can be totally one sided and I think this is why there's such a big divide in this country. Give some credence to others opinions even if you vehemently disagree with them. I don't like the kneeling as I have said before but do agree they have the right to do so just not when you're working whether it be amateur or professional or whether you get paid in money or in kind. Do it in the locker room why piss off people who pay to see a sports event that they love. We all are aware of the injustices in this country that have gone on forever and most rationale thinking people are opposed to these injustices as I'm. I love this game love the sport of basketball and this will not stop me from continuing to enjoy it. I'll reiterate what I've already said and applaud Cards for speaking his feelings and showing what a passionate person that he's.

[4EverDutch]

"why piss off people who pay to see a sports event that they love?" Exactly. Period. End of story. Not the place or time to express your concerns. There are plenty of other ways to get your message out, especially for high profile athletes. The presumed benefit of your protest does not outweigh the damage it does to your sport, college or pro.

[Cards]

I am honored that some on the board consider me to be a veteran, however, I am not. In fact, I see no reason why my beliefs/opinions should be interpreted as to represent a position attributed to anyone who has or is serving. They are simply my opinions as an American citizen who is simply blessed to be one.

Although not perfect, I believe our country has done more to defend and advance man's endowed freedoms across the globe and on the home front than any other country or government in history. I also believe that our flag is a symbol of those efforts and is recognized as such at home and abroad. So, although no one can nor should demand adherence to patriotic gestures (such as standing or kneeling for the anthem and flag) I simply believe that objecting to do so before a school game is not the time or place.

These type of statements apply when we're debating policy questions, questions like whether to raise taxes (for what and on whom), on energy, foreign policy, the econony, education, etc., etc. But we can't even get to that because one party -- only ONE (or at least a substantial part of one party) -- has been radicalized and believes in insane conspiracy theories like QAnon; makes wearing masks during a widespread, deadly pandemic a political issue; swears fealty to one person in a cultlike manner; won't accept the results of a free and fair election or our longtime tradition of the peaceful transfer of power; attracts neo-Nazis to its party on a widespread basis; and has the leader of its party basically echo the other party's argument for an impeachment conviction yet votes against his own words and votes for acquittal for no more than political reasons rather than standing by his own words and doing what he knows is right. On that last one, we absolutely cannot have unity in this country until we have accountability. But that's pretty tough to have when certain senators from one party say one thing that agrees with the other party, but then vote against those beliefs and against accountability.

So that's where the "both sides" things right now is frankly bullshit and simplifies what's going on in this country right now way too much.

I'll disagree - we DON'T have awareness, not nearly as much as we should. Not like you think. Not when so many people are radicalized. It all depends on where you get your information from. If you're going down the QAnon rabbit hole every day and you don't listen to much else, you don't have awareness at all. And there are a LOT of people like that in our country right now. That stuff is sadly and unfortunately far more than a mere fringe (there are two QAnon congresspeople who were elected, one of which you know - MTG) and they have a large hold on the more reasonable members of the party, which is a huge problem for everyone, regardless of party affiliation.

Those things go so far beyond policy debates that it's absolutely not the "same on both sides." No party is ever perfect, but right now, too much of one side is doing the above because that side no longer adheres to basic truths and facts about anything anymore, and the rest of the party doesn't disavow it. So then, many people on one side are allowed to have their "alternative facts" which are really just the spreading of lies and misinformation while those who know better in one party take advantage of that to try to stay in power. That's why like I said in the other thread, before anything, regardless of parties and perspectives, we need to first get back to the same baseline for all of facts and truth instead of making facts and truth whatever some people want it to be, based on wild, unfounded conspiracy theories.

As some wise person once said "Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? Certainly no malice intended here Wags, just pointing out that there are always mores interpretations out there then the ones we hold.

[Wags]

It should be socioeconomic but POLITICS rears its ugly head.

The two are inextricably intertwined (regardless of anyone's specific political beliefs).

[Wags]

Although not perfect, I believe our country has done more to defend and advance man's endowed freedoms across the globe and on the home front than any other country or government in history.

Agree, but that also shouldn't mask how far we still have to go.

I also believe that our flag is a symbol of those efforts and is recognized as such at home and abroad.

This is precisely why it pained me to see the Confederate flag waved in our Capitol building and more so, why the pole holding the American flag was used to brutalize Capitol police officers -- and just as much, that there is very little outrage for that, especially compared to kneeling.

Certainly no malice intended here Wags

None taken at all, Cards. I didn't even think that from anything you've said in this thread or the other one.

just pointing out that there are always mores interpretations out there then the ones we hold.

Fully agree and that's healthy.

[Flying Dutchmen]

The far left is as radicalized as the far right, if you can't see that, you're radicalized.

The problem is you probably have 80%+ of Americans who do not hold extreme political viewpoints who increasingly feel obligated to pick a side, then get thrown in with the radicals of the side they pick. Social media, mainstream media play it up because it gets eyes on their product, and it riles everybody up, even though the vast majority of people have no true understanding of what they're supporting on either side. People need to wake up, kneeling for the anthem doesn't make you an anti-American commie, supporting Trump doesn't make you a nazi, those are just stupid points thrown out by stupid people.

Speaking of stupid, this thread is stupid and should be deleted immediately. I don't even know why it matters what people's political viewpoints are on this message board. It's a pathetic way to judge somebody in general, and this thread contains no meaningful conversation, it's just a tool to grandstand. If you don't like Hofstra University's stance on social justice, which I'm assuming brought this whole topic up, stop donating and supporting the school.

I'm embarrassed I even commented on this thread, but I felt it had to be said.

[Wags]

The far left is as radicalized as the far right, if you can't see that, you're radicalized.

Sorry, but complete wacko conspiracy theories like QAnon, the acceptance of neo-nazi groups, not adhering to peaceful transfers of power, not accepting the outcome of free and fair elections and voter suppression are all owned by the far right, not by the far left at all. Those things are all severe dangers to our democracy. If you can't see that, you're not paying close enough attention.

I don't agree with the far left either, but this false equivalency nonsense simply to prop up one's one side only hurts the chances of ever achieving unity and it's complete crap. Own it and fix it instead of false whataboutism. Many on the right are attempting to do that but many others on the right are standing in their way because they're not willing to own it and fix it.

[joeg1]

Personally, I don't know why the national anthem is played before sporting events. It's not before concerts, plays, TV shows, etc. Other countries don't do it. It just seems out of place. I think playing before every sporting event dilutes it's impact.

Having said that, I will always stand attentively and respectfully, although it is your prerogative not to. I believe sincere protest, done nonviolently, is a patriotic act that we must defend, even if we disagree with the motives, even when we find them distasteful.

Lastly, I think we need to try harder to see things from other people's point of view. If we do that, it becomes easier to negotiate and compromise without villainizing each other.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

[4EverDutch]

Intelligent and respectful debate above is great to see.

Detouring a bit, IF this continues into next season, I think its worth contemplating what the reaction of fans will be and what effect, if any, it might have on attendance?

[Wags]

Personally, I don't know why the national anthem is played before sporting events. It's not before concerts, plays, TV shows, etc. Other countries don't do it. It just seems out of place.

I never even thought of this before we started discussing it on this board over the past several days, but it's a very valid point not only because of what you say above (which I also alluded to in the other thread), but in part, because...

I think playing before every sporting event dilutes it's impact.

Good point. If it were played only say, on the July 4th, Memorial Day, before, I don't know... State of the Union addresses and other select times, it might mean more, especially since it would be done more tastefully instead of some of the poor versions we've heard at sporting events when it's sometimes butchered and badly overdone. The only sporting event I could see making an exception for is the Super Bowl since so many across the country (and the world) are watching and that day has effectively become a de facto national holiday.

Having said that, I will always stand attentively and respectfully, although it is your prerogative not to. I believe sincere protest, done nonviolently, is a patriotic act that we must defend, even if we disagree with the motives, even when we find them distasteful.

Yup, all of this. I personally have always stood for the anthem, but even with that, my own little protest is that I temporarily have stopped putting my hand on my heart (and just place my hands behind my back) for many of the same reasons people kneel, until I feel comfortable and proud enough that we've made enough progress that I want to place my hand over my heart again instead of just doing that without thinking about it, like before. But I still stand every time, and when I do, I consider that despite our issues, we also have a lot great people in our country of all different backgrounds and beliefs.

Lastly, I think we need to try harder to see things from other people's point of view. If we do that, it becomes easier to negotiate and compromise without villainizing each other.

Like I said above, whether we like it or not, social issues and politics go hand in hand. But the problem with that is what you say about villainizing. Unfortunately, politics have become like sports. People wear the red jersey or the blue jersey with politics now and becomes like sports. That works fine in sports because nothing major is at stake and there's always next season. In politics, it can literally mean life and death for many. We can overlook Ray going 1/11 one game and cheer for him when he gets 28 the next and never waver in our support. And if we hate W&M as much as Polito does (not to pick on you here, Polito), that's fine, because it's sports, W&M's a conference rival, and we should hate them (in a fun way) and if we villainize their fans and vice versa, so be it - it's all part of the fun rooting for teams and against other teams. But when the stakes are much greater, we can't be afraid (on any side) to admit fault and demand better from those we support and we should be careful villainizing other sides because with that, it's different. With that, it's not W&M vs. Hofstra. With that, it's all ONE team, all Americans.

However, that's where I come back to needing a baseline of truth and facts. Although I firmly believe what I just said about ONE team, it's extremely difficult to ascribe to that idea when it's no longer a debate on policy issues but about whether facts are real or not and whether one side (it mainly seems) wants to believe in anything they want, no matter how untrue or how outrageous it may be. That, we never really had before until the past few years and it may not be going away anytime soon.

[stuball888]

I believe playing the national anthem occurred during wartime either WWI or WWII and became a tradition after the Korean War

[Wags]

I believe playing the national anthem occurred during wartime either WWI or WWII and became a tradition after the Korean War

The first documented time that it was played at an American sporting event came at a baseball game in 1862, during the Civil War but it mainly started toward the end of WWI, during Game 1 of World Series: https://www.history.com/news/why-the-st ... ing-events

Note in that article, it says:

The anthem’s adoption also gave way to a new American pastime, almost as beloved as sports itself: complaining about people’s behavior during the national anthem. By 1954, Baltimore Orioles general manager Arthur Ehlers was already bemoaning fans he thought disrespected the anthem by talking and laughing during the song. Ehlers briefly stopped playing the anthem altogether, before relenting to pressure and reinstating it a month later.

So, whether or not you object to kneeling for the anthem, if you are like Cards (and myself) and believe that as Cards said, "Our country has done more to defend and advance man's endowed freedoms across the globe and on the home front than any other country or government in history," we should actually consider kneeling to be progress since exercising that Constitutionally-protected right with the aim at creating a more perfect union in 2021 is a measure of progress compared to people talking and laughing during the anthem in 1954.

[cactus]

Historically sports message boards don't permit political or religious discussions because they can get ugly very quickly, and I don't really have time to moderate (just seeing the thread now), but considering the team bringing it to the forefront and people ready to jump ship because of it, let's see where it goes and if it can stay civil

[Hofstra]

Yea, I am here for this. Getcha popcorn ready

[stuball888]

Cactus I have faith that this thread will be civil. We all probably agree on 90% of all social issues. We have a lot more in common with each other and Hofstra athletics is the Gorilla Glue that keeps us together.

[triplec2195]

Cactus I have faith that this thread will be civil. We all probably agree on 90% of all social issues. We have a lot more in common with each other and Hofstra athletics is the Gorilla Glue that keeps us together.

Yes Stu probably true just keep the political innuendos out of the discussion.

[HofstraPride1]

Cactus I have faith that this thread will be civil. We all probably agree on 90% of all social issues. We have a lot more in common with each other and Hofstra athletics is the Gorilla Glue that keeps us together.

Agreed Stu. The beauty of sports is it can connect a diverse group of people, politically and racially together as one and no better example of that than Hofstra sports. Go Pride!

[Polito]

Thanks cactus, totally get this is a risky area, and I would completely understand shutting it down - I'm good with whatever you all feel is best. My goal here was simply to pull it out of the game thread, where it was already a fully fueled discussion, and clouding the game convo.

But I didn't start the fire lol, just wanted to separate it

I know this can be a 'firey' deal, and my hope has been the same, that we all continue to approach with care and respect. So far pretty good frankly haha, but we'll need to continue to keep the right mindset. I agree that normally this doesn't belong here, and I typically stay VERY far away from these topics, can't stand dealing with it honestly. But this actually carries a bit more relevance than normal because of the context of it, as you noted.

I'll bring back up something that HUSID made a point to teach me awhile back on here, and that is speaking in absolutes. I think that's where things get a bit rocky. I've done it before re Hofstra athletics, hence why he stated so on here to me lol - he was right and it applies to life, so we need to be mindful of that.

Anyone coming in very hot and extremely heavy for one side is going to have a tough time, not going to get very far like that. People aren't going to be 'convinced' by others adamantly and definitively trying to prove how right they are and wrong the others are in a broad stroke. BOTH sides are whacked on topics in their own way, and if that is not acknowledged and accountability felt, there will be pushback.

It's not all the rights fault, not even close, that's just silly, I hope we're all smarter than that. THAT in itself is a divisive point of view, which is quite funny for anyone who can see through the BS and realize the total hypocrisy of being divisive to fight against divisiveness . The right stormed the capital, totally bonkers and deplorable IMO, and guess what, the left has been the source of loads of violent protests, property destruction, looting, etc. for the better part of a year or more, and I sure didn't see anyone going wild about that - matter of fact, I saw many refuse to denounce it, in effect fueling and encouraging it in the name of 'saving our country' - as I said before, rampant idiocy today.

This goes back to my prior point, and I don't think this can be stated enough, and it applies to ALL sides: We are not asking people for their awareness anymore, we are now DEMANDING agreement. If there is anything that is unconstitutional and freedom infringing, it is that right there. To the Nth degree. And I'm not getting down with that, not now, not ever. It's wrong, no matter which way you lean.

I don't agree with MUCH of what is happening today, vehemently oppose some things even, but I'm not running around ending friendships/relationships, ruining people's lives and careers, sending myself into depression, hating entire swaths of people, physically hurting people or property because of it. Do some things require fighting and war? Absolutely. But those things are full stop common denominators such as COVID, or another entity blatantly attacking our nation as a whole regardless of any factor other than living here / being American - sure, we of course need to go to arms and do all we can to protect our lives as a whole.

But what we have today is in-fighting within our own 'family', killing each other, sometimes metaphorically, sometimes worse in reality. Instead I'm calling us to use outlandish things called empathy, intelligence, and respecting others. And if we could get people to do more of that, boy would this be a better time for us all.